Harvest Church
6450 NW 36th Ave, Norman
Service Times: Sundays at 10:00am and 6:00pm
I was invited to Harvest Church a few months ago by one of its members, and figured it was high time I took him up on the offer. A couple of days before my church-hop, I studied the church’s website, hoping to get an idea of what to expect. The good news? There was more substance, more insight into what these folks believe, than many of the other church websites I’ve seen. The bad news? Some of what I read made me a little nervous.
On the “What We Believe” page, I found some talk about the Rapture (the first time I’ve come across this kind of thing so far in my church-hopping), as well as a few indications that I might be about to experience a charismatic church. (Click here for Wiki’s description of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.) Much of what I read about Harvest Church’s beliefs seemed to fit the description – water baptism, lots of talk about the Holy Spirit, and some signals that speaking in tongues might not be entirely out of the question. In addition, I learned that Harvest Church believes that the Bible is “the only infallible guide,” and that by “sowing one’s seeds in the storehouse of the Lord” (I assume this refers to tithing), one will be rewarded by the reaping of a great harvest. Similarly, they believe that “poverty, debt, and lack are a curse.”
On the Outreach Ministries page, I found this interesting bit about “Street Evangelism:”
Street Evangelism – Outreach thorugh [sic] witnessing on the streets of Oklahoma using the Way of the Master techniques and passing out Gospel tracks [sic].
Oh, my.
I was experiencing an odd mixture of dread and excitement. I was nervous about what the service might be like, but I also couldn’t wait. This promised to be something much, much different than the previous churches I’ve visited.
And, it was. From the moment the stage curtain swept back dramatically to reveal a large, multiracial choir and band, to the very end, this was certainly different.
Let’s start with the music. I loved it.
This was full-on, balls-to-the-wall Gospel. I’m also pleased to report that the lyrics were, for the most part, very God-appropriate. There was little of that “Jesus is my boyfriend” vibe, and more of the “God is Great” kind of vibe. One notable exception was a song with the unfortunate lyrics, “Can’t nobody do me like Jesus / Can’t nobody do me like the Lord.” With all apologies to the good folks at Harvest Church, I almost lost it during that number. But aside from that, I have to give Harvest Church an enthusiastic thumbs-up on the music. In fact, I caught myself tapping my foot and nodding my head along just a bit, something I never do. Well done, choir and band – well done.
Furthermore, the keyboard player continued to play throughout most of the service, providing something of a score to the sermon. This guy was really terrific. I doff my cap to you, good sir.
Something I wasn’t quite so fond of was the amount of time that was spent urging us to give money to something called “Gideon’s Army.” From what I could tell, the funds go towards improvements to the facility. Members were encouraged to donate a dollar a day for the next year; to give and they will be blessed by God. Soft piano music underscored what felt oddly like a PBS or NPR pledge drive.
Moving on.
This is the first church I’ve visited (aside from St. Mark’s) that has done Communion. I’m always curious to see how non-Catholic churches approach this. Ushers passed a golden plate of what looked to be cracker bits up and down the rows, as well as another golden plate containing tiny plastic cups of what appeared to be wine (but was probably grape juice). I abstained, of course, but found myself wondering why all the ushers were men. Does Harvest Church allow women to be ushers, or is this a boys-only club?
Speaking of which – I also noticed that, as with NewChurch, the Ministries are separated into Men’s Ministries and Women’s Ministries. Could someone explain to me why, after the (coed) Kingdom Kids, followed by the (also coed) 24/7 Student Ministry, one graduates to a life of gender segregation until the Seniors group?
I will say this for Harvest Church – aside from the fact that there are no female ushers, they do appear to have quite a few women in leadership roles. Also, I found Harvest Church much more racially diverse than many of the other churches I’ve visited. Another thumbs up on this.
Now, for the sermon. Aside from something I may see from time to time while flipping past the religious channel, or maybe in a movie (I was strongly reminded of Paul Dano’s character in There Will Be Blood), I’ve never seen preaching like this. Pastor Jeff Burns was charismatic, in the not-describing-a-church sense of the word. He was jumping all over the place, sweating and shouting. It was a firey, passionate, even mesmerizing, spectacle. Dare I say there’s even something kind of sexy about this kind of preaching, once you get used to the histrionics. Watching him, I could totally see how someone could be drawn into a cult. (I’m not saying that Harvest Church is a cult, I only mean that some of the qualities I saw demonstrated that morning are similar to the persuasive and hypnotic qualities often attributed to cult leaders.)
As for the content of the sermon, it was all pretty joyful and exuberant until it turned to talk of “spiritual warfare.” This kind of language always sends a chill down my spine. What, exactly, is meant by this? One of the verses referred to by Pastor Jeff mentioned something about “vengeance on the heathens” and “execute upon them the judgment written.” As one of those aforementioned “heathens,” I had to wonder at this point what I’d gotten myself into. I checked around for an escape route, just in case. What kind of weapon was I about to be faced with? Alas, Pastor Jeff went on to say that praise for the Lord was the weapon of choice.
Whew.
So even with no beheadings in my immediate future, I’m still kind of troubled by this kind of rhetoric. I suppose that without it, there would be little or no reason for evangelism. Without heathens to save, or evil to fight against, evangelicals would have little to do but sit around, singing and praying and building bigger churches. But the idea of “spiritual warfare” forces me to ask some uncomfortable questions. How great is that divide between metaphorical and literal meaning? How wide is the distance between converting by praise and converting by the sword?
A large chunk of the sermon dealt with faith, and how it’s “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Again, without this belief there would be little reason for churches to exist. I understand that. However, I’m someone who holds an intense appreciation for the observable world, and finds plenty of joy and meaning in the wonders of science, in the evidence of things seen. So, as I’m clearly not the target audience, I’ll refrain from commenting any further. I’ve engaged in the whole religion vs. science debate often enough to know that when two people are speaking different languages, the whole thing is likely to end in frustration all around. I’m probably not going to convince you of anything, and you’re probably not going to convince me. A peaceful coexistence is maybe the most we can hope for.
The service was perhaps the longest service I’ve ever attended, clocking in at two hours. Everyone I came into contact with was very welcoming and friendly, and I shook so many hands that I felt like a politician at a fundraiser. And the exuberance! These folks really get into the service – shouting and clapping and singing along. It’s pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum from what I’m used to, which is terrific, because the whole point of my church-hopping project is to experience the full range of how people worship. And I have to say that despite my serious concerns regarding some of the sermon’s content, and what I felt was a little too much focus on giving money to the church, I actually had a pretty good time at Harvest Church.
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davidbmc Said:
February 4, 2008 @ 2:42 pm
As a “recovering pentecostal” I will say what I miss most is the music. What I miss least is the pressure to give money so God will bless me a thousand fold. I believe it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture. (Thuogh I do believe in giving money-dont get me wrong.)
Glad you had a good time at Harvest.
Rhology Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 8:51 am
This is a real question, not rhetorical at all.
When you talked about “beheadings” and spiritual warfare, etc, were you being facetious when you said you were looking around for an escape route? Do you really equate Midwestern American Christians like those at Harvest Church with jihadist Muslims?
Sarah Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 9:14 am
Obviously (or maybe not so obviously) a portion of that was intended for dramatic/comedic effect. Of course I wasn’t literally looking for escape routes.
However, the point was intended quite seriously. Clearly, no one from Harvest Church was going to behead me in the Hospitality Room, but when people adopt an “us vs. them” mentality, one might wonder how far a leap it is between fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam. The methods may differ, but I do see some similarities in the underlying theory. Both are quite certain that they alone belong to the one true faith, and everyone else is a “heathen” or “infidel.”
Fundamentalism is fundamentalism.
Elder Greg Madden Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Ms Sarah,
This is Elder Greg Madden (I’m the person who invited you to Harvest Church). I just wanted to say how thrilled I was that you and your friend were our guest’s last Sunday, and for your honest (and I believe kind) review of our church on your blog. I was pleased to read that you had enjoyed the service. It’s pretty awesome huh? I was telling Darla (my wife, I believe you met her too) that I only regret we did not have a chance to chat longer. Perhaps we could talk over a Starbucks coffee sometime? Or as Pastor Jeff calls them “Five-bucks”. LOL!
If it is alright with you (and I assume it is or you would not ask for comments) I would like to “attempt” to clear up some of the issues you wrote about in your review. I will try to be as succinct and to the point as possible (given this format does not lend itself to in depth comments).
Rapture of the Church:
Within Biblical eschatology this is the doctrine which teaches that the Church (hence all born-agian Christians no matter what denomination) will be miraculously transported to heaven by God before a great time of judgment. This will be at, or near the end of the world.
The Bible is “the only infallible guide”:
We do believe the Bible is the only infallible guide. Not that there are not other source we look to for wisdom and information (church tradition, science, education, ect…) Though we acknowledge these other sources, it is the Bible alone that stands as “infallible”. All other sources are subject to the Truth of God’s Word.
Too much focus on giving:
Ms Sarah, I am not sure if you were aware, but what we did concerning the “Gideon’s Army” only took place in that service (and the previous Sunday service). This was only to recognize those who had committed to giving a dollar a day for this year. And in appreciation of their giving, Pastor Jeff publicly recognized them, gave them a certificate of appreciation, a lapel pin, and all those who are giving can request one cd a month of a service of their choice. Not bad huh? I am not sure if you remember Pastor Jeff receiving the tithes and offerings after the “Gideon’s Army”. This took, four, five minutes tops (which is about normal). I wonder, if the “Gideon’s Army” had not taken place, would you have felt the same way? Hmm…
Sermon content:
The sermon preached at any church, is usually the most “doctrinally” based portion of any service (not that the other parts of the service were not, but preaching is totally designed by God to expound, explain, and declare the will and Word of God). As with your other church-hopping reviews, I have noticed you have had similar responses to their preaching as well. I was please that you did make it clear that our war is spiritual (not natural) and that one of the weapons we Christians are to use is praise, and not literal swords. (Though on a side note, I believe we are light years from jihad and beheading anyone).
Men’s Ministries and Women’s Ministries co-ed issue:
To be frank with you, this has never come up. Darla and I were reading you comments together about this, and we agreed that you may have a point. Perhaps it is one of those “church traditions” that you never realize is a tradition until someone from a differing perspective points it out. As a matter of fact, I shared your comments with Pastor Jeff also, and I will be discussing with him this very issue.
Ms Sarah, I do have two more suggestions for you (if you are interested) and you’re “church-hopping” adventures.
First, our church has started another church/outreach in OKC that is totally geared towards cowboys. The Lord led us a few years ago to start this homogenous ministry to better relate to the cowboy subculture. It is called Heartland Cowboy Church. This takes place every Monday night, @7pm. Pastor Jeff’s preaching and the music is VERY county. Personally, it’s not my cup of tea, but hey, different strokes for different folks. Here is the web site for more info…
http://www.heartlandcowboychurch.com/
Second, if you are interested in more information about the history, governmental structure, and doctrines of Harvest Church I believe I have just such the thing. You see, one of my duties as an elder is to conduct the new member’s orientation classes. These classes are a requirement for all who would like to join Harvest Church. These are by definition an “orientation class”. They are not “indoctrinational” as much as “informational”. Candidates who are seeking church membership are asked to attend these three consecutive Wednesday night classes. The classes are conducted on an “as needed” basis. Right now we are experiencing such growth that we have to conduct these classes every month. If you are interested, I would be happy to let you know when the next set of classes start. Yes, you are welcome to attend. I have had several folks over the years who wanted to just know more about the church also go through the classes. You will not be singled out, or put on the spot. This is a simple, friendly, invitation for you to understand us a little better. I’m sure it’s probably a little late now, but if you’re interested our next series of classes begins tonight (Wednesday 2/6/08, @7pm, in the hospitality room).
I know, I know… maybe I am “pimp’n” Harvest Church! But ya can’t blame a guy for try’n. LOL!
Thanks again. I’m look forward to reading about your church-hopping. I hope to hear back from you soon.
Elder Greg Madden
Elder Greg Madden Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
Ms Sarah,
Two things you mentioned that I forgot to address.
1. Tithing and sowing seed:
You are correct; we believe the Bible teaches us that it is God’s will for His children to be blessed. This does not mean we think you have to drive a Cadillac to be a Christian. That is totally un-Biblical! Allow me to quote from our “What we believe” portion in our “Provision and prosperity” section…
“We believe it is the will of God for every Believer to have more than enough to meet their needs, to have enough left over to bless others and to give into the work of the Lord. We believe poverty, debt, and lack are a curse. We believe as Christians are obedient in tithing to the local church, sowing financial seeds into ministry, giving of their first fruits, and blessing the needy they will reap a harvest. Provision is having an adequate supply to fulfill the vision (destiny) God has given the Believer, and prosperity is anything more than what meets your needs.”
Notice what we said about provision “Provision is having an adequate supply to fulfill the vision (destiny) God has given the Believer…” By this we simply mean that God will meet your needs (food, clothing, shelter, ect…) so you can follow His will for your life. And then notice what we said about prosperity “…prosperity is anything more than what meets your needs.” In other words, if you find that you can meet all your needs, and afterwards find you have money left over…then the money left over IS prosperity. We have a twisted view of what prosperity means in America. I do hope this makes sense.
The Bible teaches us that God will take care of His children. No, you don’t have to be rich to be “saved”. But to be honest with you Ms Sarah, I tried being broke, and I’ve tried being blessed. I like being blessed better!
2. Your concerns about Harvest Church having no women ushers:
This is true. We do not have any. Why? Not because it’s a “boys only club”. You must understand that at Harvest Church, ushers are a volunteer position. If someone volunteers to be an usher, they are contacted by our head usher who will allocate their responsibilities, and schedule their time to serve. The ushers duties include assisting guests, receiving the tithes and offerings, assisting Pastor minister to people in times of prayer, and (as you duly noted) serving communion. Perhaps it is one of those (for lack of a better word) “occupations” that men, instead of women, lean towards? It is our prayer that as the church grows, more women will be interested in this valuable ministry.
Thanks again for your time.
Elder Greg
Sarah Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
Greg,
Thank you for your comments. I’m relieved that you weren’t completely offended by what I had to say…believe it or not, that’s something I always kind of worry about when I do these.
A couple of comments in return:
I wasn’t aware that the Gideon’s Army thing was a once-a-year or so event. If that was mentioned that morning, I obviously missed it and I apologize. That does change my opinion on this quite a bit, in fact. I have no problem with the regular tithing that came afterwards…pretty much every church I’ve ever attended in my life has “passed the plate.” Although, I am curious if this money is used for things other than improvements to the church. Is any of it donated to charities? (Again, if this was addressed on Sunday and I missed it, I’m sorry.)
As for the “spiritual warfare” stuff…as I stated in my comment to Rhology above, I definitely didn’t mean a literal comparison to the Taliban, or anything like that. And yes, I think I have griped about “spiritual warfare” before, because, honestly, it does bother me. This is just one of those aspects of religion (some religions, I should say…not all share this view) that I continue to find irreconcilable with my own values. I’m a huge fan of personal liberty, and that everyone is free to believe, or not to believe, as he or she chooses. I don’t believe that there is one true religion. Actively seeking to convert other people bothers me. Thinking that a perfectly decent human being is somehow evil, or damned to hell, simply because he or she doesn’t share my same convictions bothers me. And that seems to be a belief shared by most, if not all, fundamentalist faiths. Clearly, not all of them are going to go out and kill those outside of their particular religion, but on some level the intolerance is there just the same. Whether you’re killed by my hand or tortured later by the hand of Satan…well, both are pretty unsavory, in my book. Both imply that the other person is somehow deserving of meeting a violent end for nothing other than believing differently than you.
If I’m mistaken about any of this, please correct me.
As for the separate men’s and women’s ministries, I wondered if maybe it was just one of those “that’s just how it’s always been” kind of things. Like I said, I’ve noticed this with many other churches, not just yours, and I still haven’t really gotten an answer on why this is. If the issue has never come up before, then I’d guess everyone at Harvest Church is satisfied with the way things are, and what I think as a non-member shouldn’t matter a bit. If I were a member, though…I assure you that I’d be fighting to change this. I think male-bonding / female-bonding stuff is cool, but it seems strange to me that there’s no co-ed option. I know some churches have singles’ groups, groups for young married couples, etc.
I think I’ve gone on long enough, so I’ll wind it down now. Thanks again for your comments!
Sarah Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 3:12 pm
Just saw your second comment, Elder Greg. Again, I appreciate the clarification.
So, if a woman wanted to volunteer as an usher, she’d be allowed to, right? Not to belabor the point, but in case you haven’t guessed by now, I’m kind of a stickler on the whole equality thing.
Rhology Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
Hey Sarah,
To follow the fundamentals of the Christian faith is to follow Christ and all He has said. Who could point to any saying from Him that could be taken by any reasonable person to mean PHYSICAL violence?
To follow fundamentalist Islam is to follow the teachings of Mohammed, which are of a manifestly violent nature.
So the jump is from non-violent to violent. I don’t see how what you’ve said follows at all.
Elder Greg Madden Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 3:29 pm
Ms Sarah,
No, you are not belaboring the point. I think you and I are very much alike when it comes to being clear in our understanding, and being clearly understood. I knew I liked you!
OK, OK, OK. I’m pimp’n again, huh? Sorry.
No, there is not a gender limitation for ushers. Except for the obvious ministries that are gender oriented, there is no gender limitation in any ministry of Harvest Church. You are right to be a “stickler on the whole equality thing”. I hope you don’t mind me sharing with you what the bible teaches us on this subject…
Gal. 3
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
In other words, Christianity liberates all who are “…in Christ Jesus”
As a matter of fact, our Harvest Church has always accepted women in ministry roles. We have women missionaries out of our church in Uganda. We have several women in our congregation who ordained. There are even some church’s that we associate with that have women pastors.
Hope this answers your questions.
Elder Greg
PS: The invitation to Cowboy church, and the new member’s classes still stands.
Sarah Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 3:33 pm
There are more kinds of violence than just physical violence. Let’s say someone is abusing me verbally, or threatening me in some way…is that not violence on some level, or must I have bruises or cuts for it to be considered violence? Rhology, I think you’re getting tripped up on literalism…on some narrow little definition of what constitutes “violence.” I would argue that besides just physical violence, there is emotional violence, or spirtual violence. Much of what I’ve been taking issue with falls into the “spirtual violence” category.
I would agree with you in that I interpret Christ’s philosophy as being very much about non-violence. But I’ve also heard many a “Christian” cite the ole’ “eye for an eye” thing. I’ve never, anywhere in this post or subsequent comments, lumped all Christians in together. But believe me, I’ve heard my fair share of violent nonsense spouting from the mouth of some Christians. If you’d like me to list some specific examples for you, I’d be happy to do so tomorrow. I suppose you’ll retort with the fact that these people aren’t real Christians, and you’re probably right on that, but it doesn’t invalidate my point.
But for now, I’m bowing out because, well, today’s my birthday and I don’t really feel like spending much more of it in an ultimately futile argument.
Elder Greg Madden Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
HAPPY BIRTHDAY SARAH!!!!!
What are you like 19, 20…?
Best wishes to you, and may you have the best birthday ever!
Elder G~
Sarah Said:
February 6, 2008 @ 3:44 pm
Heh. Those days of 19 and 20 are far, far behind me. Thankfully, I might add.
Thanks for the birthday wishes, though!
(And kudos to you and your church for being cool with women in leadership positions. I did notice, and I think I mentioned this before, that I also found a remarkable amount of diversity at your church. I commend you all for that.)
Now, it’s time to prep for celebrating!
galateadia Said:
February 7, 2008 @ 12:11 am
Have you ever considered visiting the First Unitarian Church in OKC? I’m not a member, but I occasionally visit with a fried or two and I always enjoy myself there.
Sarah Said:
February 7, 2008 @ 7:49 am
First Unitarian is definitely on my list!
Rhology Said:
February 7, 2008 @ 11:12 am
As regards spiritual violence, I’d commend to you Ephesias 6, especially where it says “our battle is not against flesh and blood”, emphasis on the NOT.
Happy Birthday!
Shane Said:
February 7, 2008 @ 8:38 pm
I’d say this experience is about typical for someone who does not acknowledge the spiritual to spend time in an environment that does. There are three aspects to life: physical, mental and spiritual. Two live in two, and not all three will cause confusion when someone runs in to all three.
Overall, a pretty fair and not unnecessarily hostile post.
Christ is King, Now and Forever.
AtomiK Kitten Said:
February 20, 2008 @ 8:47 pm
Someone might have said this, but I am tired and am in severe physical pain…so I just wanted to put in my two cents. Two hours is about what our church lasts… I’m Pentecostal. You can’t lump charismatic and Pentecostal together all the time (not saying you do that; this is my first visit here). That would be like saying all pagans are wiccans which would not be true.
Lord bless your evening.